Overcoming Fears – Cindy Carrillo

Cindy Carrillo:
I couldn’t figure out how to scale a consulting company, quite frankly. And I was always chasing business while I was doing business. So I think it’s the challenge that most consultants have and the solopreneurs have who are trying to sell services that they themselves provide. And I think that was a big aha moment for me to get to the point where it was like a little switch in the back of my head and something flipped the switch and I went, okay, is this about you or is this about growing a company? It couldn’t be all about me.

Dana Robinson:
Exit Plan is a podcast for business owners and those who want to be business owners. I’m always in search of the lesser.

Dana Robinson:
Known stories of entrepreneurship.

Dana Robinson:
In the Exit Plan podcast. You’ll hear stories from startup to sale and hear from the professionals who helped business owners achieve their exit. Hosted by me, author and private equity manager Dana Robinson. Along with my co hosts and guests, you’ll hear real stories, tips and tools that will help you plan for the exit you want whether you are still working at a day job or running a business. Let’s get started with this episode of the Exit Plan podcast.

Dana Robinson:
Hey everybody, thanks for tuning in to another episode of the Exit Plan podcast. This is Dana Robinson. Today I have an exciting, exciting guest, Cindy Carrillo. Cindy, thanks for coming on.

Cindy Carrillo:
My pleasure. Can’t wait to talk.

Dana Robinson:
Yeah, me too. So we have mutual friend in the book publishing and marketing space, Nick, who introduced us and gave me your bio and I checked out your website and I was pretty excited to have somebody on who not only been through their own entrepreneurial journeys, but also does things to help and support people who are on their entrepreneurial journey. So we get, we get two for one today because I’m always eager to hear how you got through your experience as an entrepreneur and what the outcomes were, good, bad or indifferent. And then to talk more about what you do to bring value to entrepreneurs in the business that you’re running today. So let me just start by trying to get back in time to the beginning. What’s the Cindy Carrillo origin story?

Cindy Carrillo:
So I was born many, many years ago. You know, the entrepreneurial thing came out of the blue. I had no idea my dad was an entrepreneur. I didn’t know what it meant. I just saw him starting businesses and I thought it was pretty cool. Worked in a couple of them. But you know, it all started when there was a problem that I kept bumping into and thought, I wonder why this isn’t. There isn’t a service to address this.

Cindy Carrillo:
And it was Way back In the late 80s, when I was getting a master’s degree in social work, thinking that I was actually going to go into nonprofit work or politics or whatever the heck I was going to do, but I certainly wasn’t going to go into business. And through a job that I had and the studies that I was doing for my master’s degree, I kept bumping up against this issue of what working parents would do when they’re. When their kids got sick and they still needed to go to work. And now, remember, this is now, you know, 30, 40 years ago, and remote work didn’t exist, right? Oh, hell, the Internet didn’t exist. So it was like if your kid got sick, and I was a new mom at the time, so I was working, getting my master’s, and had a new baby. And if something happened and I couldn’t get to work or get to school, I mean, it was like, your world explodes. And I realized this, this is like an issue. This was a problem.

Cindy Carrillo:
And more and more women were entering the workforce back then, and it was new to corporations because that kind of started up again in the 70s. So there was this whole difficult movement that was happening in business that was trying to figure out, how do we deal with employees who kind of have a full life. Right?

Dana Robinson:
Yeah.

Cindy Carrillo:
Like family they have, children they have. And with moms going to work, it really became an issue through corporate work, and they were really struggling. I look at it now, and I kind of crack up and go, really, this is an issue. But back then, it was new. It was like, oh, my gosh, what do we do? So I sort of blew all the plans of nonprofit and political aspirations that I had and thought I should probably start a business to solve this problem. And so I came up with this idea of starting kind of a consulting firm and trying to figure out how to work with corporations about addressing what was then first being coined as the term work life balance. Crazy. And so came up historic company just sort of like, okay, I think I’ll do this.

Cindy Carrillo:
And was when we first started, was in the. What I now recognize to be the unenviable position of trying to educate the people I was trying to sell services to that they had a problem. Not a good sales proposition. Right. You always want to come in with a solution when people know and recognize, ah, I have a problem. You don’t want to have to convince anybody. So I was in that position of saying, hey, you have a problem you don’t know about. And I’m.

Cindy Carrillo:
I’m suggesting you spend A whole bunch of money to solve it when you don’t even know it exists. So I, you know, it was a rough start, let’s just put it that way. And, and I realized that I couldn’t really make a go of it as a business in consulting in that manner. And society kind of had to catch up for a little bit. So I had my second kid. And during that time of having my second kid, I sort of, after he was born, I thought, okay, if the phone doesn’t ring in a few months, I’m going to give up this idea and go back to work. If the phone rings because I’m putting out some feelers, like maybe things have caught up, then I guess maybe I have a company and damn if the phone didn’t ring. And I got my first contract and my first contract was actually with a group of local companies in Boulder, Colorado who wanted to figure out how to address their problem that they identified that they had of not being able to support working parents.

Cindy Carrillo:
And at that point it was actually working moms, it wasn’t even parents. So that was the start. And it was not a not for profit company. I was like, if I’m going to do this, I’m going to own this company and I’m going to grow this company and I’m going to make money with this company. And that was. Took longer and was harder than, than my declarative sentence to do it. That was the start of it. And I ran that company for 20 some odd years.

Dana Robinson:
Wow. And so did you grow this into a firm with people under you?

Cindy Carrillo:
And yeah, it took a while. And what I realized was that it actually pivoted a few times, like from the first iteration of the company becoming a consulting firm. Then we, I developed a group of a set of service programs that I could sell to these companies and ended up selling it to this group of companies. So it was funny because there wasn’t really a market till the market presented itself. And then I kind of bundled them all together and said, ooh, I have a group. So let’s create the economies of scale that we need. You’ve got 300 employees, you’ve got 500 employees, you’ve got 1,000 employees. Together they made up about 5,500 employees.

Cindy Carrillo:
So now we can spread out some of the costs. Now I can hire some people. And we started some programs and ended up sort of managing the programs and selling the programs to them. Then I went out and looked for other groups that I could create. So that took a good number of years to do. And with every group that I brought on, we expanded geographically, we expanded our program territory, and we actually started to focus our program offerings in a little bit more, because you can’t be everything to everybody, and you want to figure out the programs that are most profitable to be able to do. But from the start, I realized that this was a B2B business that we were trying to sell a boutique benefit plan, a group of services to corporations to help them distinguish themselves as employers of choice as the best place to work. And through these kinds of programs that supported working parents.

Cindy Carrillo:
And then basically, it became more of an employee issue that recognized that employees are actually whole human beings who have full lives. And whether or not it’s a child who gets sick or a mom falls and breaks her or hip or a spouse needs shoulder surgery, we needed to back them up so that they could meet their work responsibilities and started what we called a backup care program. And that was the program that had legs that we were able to really lean into and pivot into and develop a nationwide network of home health care providers. And we became kind of the middleman for providing the service. We contracted out for the people who could do the Service. We operated a 247 call center, and we sold our benefit to corporations who then provided the benefit to their employees. So the employees would call us, we would hook them up with care, and boom, everybody’s happy. In theory.

Dana Robinson:
I love it. That seems like a major pivot from a consultant. I was going to ask you how you grow a consulting firm, because I’m sure you know, most of the people that I know who are running something that’s a professional service where their knowledge is the thing they sell, the scaling that is always challenged. So maybe we put a pin in that and say, maybe you have some insight into how people grow through that. But the thing you’re talking about now is you actually said, all right, I got these customers that are buying our consulting. They need this thing that’s going to solve part of the problem. That thing became a branded service that you productized and that you didn’t have to provide because you. You subbed it out, you middleman, middlewoman.

Cindy Carrillo:
We did. We did. And it was interesting because I couldn’t figure out how to scale a consulting company, quite frankly. And I was always chasing business while I was doing business. So I think it’s the challenge that most consultants have and the solopreneurs have who are trying to sell services that they themselves provide. And I think that was a big, like, aha. Moment for me to get to the point where it was like a little switch in the back of my head and something flipped the switch and I went, okay, is this about you or is this about growing a company? And when it became about growing a company, then it couldn’t be all about me.

Dana Robinson:
Right.

Cindy Carrillo:
Because I didn’t want to sell me. I wanted to ultimately sell my company. And so it had to be about figuring out what this company’s value was, what services it provided. And I needed to step into a leadership position and surround myself with people who could do more of the work and provide the services. And that was a monumental change.

Dana Robinson:
Right. So this is the. I spent much of my law practice years in that funk. Solo, solo practitioner. And even when, you know, I ended up in a boutique partnership which, you know, gave us some scale, it still was a challenge because we were always the ones in demand that the highest knowledge worker is the most demand. You bill for more and you get into this trap where all you have is a better pay for your services. But the. And I know marketers, you know, people that are in, you know, you name the service and consulting business that somebody gets good at.

Dana Robinson:
So would you say, in answer to the question, I put the pin in, the first step to taking a consulting business into something that’s scalable is getting yourself out of consulting. Like you. Yes.

Cindy Carrillo:
Yeah. And working on the business. Yes.

Dana Robinson:
Then the business becomes your business.

Cindy Carrillo:
Yes. And realizing that, you start to talk about the firm, the company, rather than sell yourself. Yeah. We go from I to a. We. We go from, how do I provide the best service for the highest dollar that I can get. Right. And I’m limited on the number of hours that I have in a day and a week and a month, so my value is going to cap out at some point.

Cindy Carrillo:
So all of these things were sort of in my brain going, I’m actually getting in the way if I want. But the decision had to be made that I wanted to scale. Not everybody does want to scale, you know, and selling their own services and having certain supports in place, an assistant, you know, a sales rep, a marketer, all the things that put you out there so that you’re actually using your time as wisely as possible and able to sort of keep it where you want. It is a perfectly valid, wonderful way to have a job and do work and build your career. That’s wonderful. And I never, as a coach now, I never coach people to feel like, boy, the only way is the scaling way, the growth way. Because some people are very Very comfortable and happy and they get everything they need. The difficulty is in making.

Cindy Carrillo:
Well, not the difficulty. The challenge is in the exit.

Dana Robinson:
Right? You create nothing to sell, right? There’s. What do you do with a business that’s reliant on you? You sell your accounts for some nominal.

Cindy Carrillo:
Sell your accounts and maybe if you’re that mind, maybe the systems that you’ve created or the technology underneath it or something like that. But again, those are things that are outside of you and those are very conscious, intentional actions to create those. Recognizing that you don’t sell yourself. Right. So that when that switch went off for me, it transformed the way that I looked at the business and that I. The way that I looked at myself within the business. And that’s really the turning point for most entrepreneurs. We either do that and switch that, you know, flip that switch, or we don’t.

Dana Robinson:
Yeah, I’ve heard a lot of people get that that switch flipped by the E Myth, Michael E. Gerber’s book that sort of posits the work on the business, not in the business, and also kind of profiles what kind of entrepreneurship entrepreneur you are and tries to help. But like that, that switch got flipped. Where did you go to figure it all out? Like did. Would you have mentors, coaches? Did you read a lot of books? Did you just like learn School of Hard Knocks?

Cindy Carrillo:
Yeah, it’s a great question. My dad was my mentor who was an entrepreneur. He, he was great at sir. He was great at like long term planning and strategy and all those kinds of things. He got me to think bigger and dream on and work, learn to work backwards from there and into the details. He was not a detailed guy though, so I kind of had to make up a lot of shit along the way, in all honesty. And I’m not a big on reading a bunch of books and figuring out how others are doing will do it. I’m actually not as interested in that.

Cindy Carrillo:
And that is, it’s funny because I wrote a book and as you know here I would love people to listen to how I did it and learn from that. But that wasn’t my go to conversations with others who had been there and done that was much more effective for me because I think I learn better by listening and asking questions and so seeking out others. I never considered networking as a very valuable pastime for myself. I wasn’t very good at it, but one on one conversations I was pretty good at and was very, very curious. But at the end of the day, if somebody would tell me, oh, this is the way you need to do 1, 2, 3, skip 4 and go to 5. Then I would invariably do 1, 3, 5, and then make up 8, 9 and 10 because that was much more fun. And you know, so I think there’s a little bit of that, that comes with being an entrepreneur sometimes that we downplay. Is that kind of, some of us with that personality, we, we are curious, but we like sort of the.

Cindy Carrillo:
No, no, you may have done it that way, but I think I want to do it this way. And let’s see what happens. And that’s, that’s the sauce. I like playing up.

Dana Robinson:
Love it. Yeah. The, the most entrepreneurs, our greatest assets are also our liabilities. We lean toward either creation or innovation or both. Right. So you’re either creating something new or, or solving a problem in a new way. But yes, that, that helps us solve a lot of problems in creative ways. But I, my, my, it’s my weakness too because then I’m sometimes not listening to somebody who’s done it before.

Cindy Carrillo:
Oh, I agree. And then, you know, it’s the proverbial shiny object syndrome, you know, and the boredom and you know, I used to say all the time, oh, I don’t like to maintain, I like to create. I like to move things forward. Well, that’s fine and good as long as you’ve got people. Yes. Who like to run the day to day operation of the business. Because that is key. And so if I’m always out there thinking of what’s next and, and always pushing and always making up stuff that can drive your people crazy because they like to like, get something done.

Cindy Carrillo:
Yeah. And get systems in place and get processes in place. And I’m like, oh, that. So growing the company was my only option because I needed people to do that.

Dana Robinson:
Yeah. That’s the. Now I’ve seen this cycle through some of the businesses that I’ve been involved with and there’s usually someone really smart that facilitates this transition where you have the entrepreneurial founder smart enough to hire some people in and say, how do we, how do we hold our cadence of meetings? How do we, you know, build SOPs? How do we, how do we put this business into a, an organization? I guess for, that’s a good word for what you’re building. What did you do? You know, you’re, you’re an innovator. You’re thinking, I’m a, I’m, I’m listening, I’m taking advice. That’s a big leap going from, you know, the switch flipping to doing it. What are some of the Things that were important that you think other people can learn from that got you from that flipping switch to having people who, like, process and follow, who follow guidelines and who, you know, execute on it on a basis while you’re out doing things that you know are your strong suit.

Cindy Carrillo:
Right. Well, I was good at selling and being the front person. So I’ll tell you the biggest. The biggest mistakes that I made first. So don’t do this if you’re me, if you’re like me. And I got to a couple of times, I thought, ooh, I can’t do this myself. I should probably bring partners in. And what I learned is that what I needed to do is I’m actually not a great partner because I’m a very independent thinker.

Cindy Carrillo:
And I just go and I do often, and I just. Especially early on. So I wasn’t a good partner. So those partnerships unraveled because I was still doing 98% of the selling, and we were small, and I didn’t pick partners who complimented me, and we didn’t have agreements as to what our roles were. So early on, I thought it would be better just to have partners who were in it with me and when in reality, that wasn’t the scenario that worked. I wasn’t a great partner, but I was a great boss, and I was a great founder, owner, and leader. So once I recognized that, yes, I was right, I needed to surround myself with people who complimented me, who did things that I wasn’t good at, who knew things that I didn’t know, who could help move the organization forward and allow me to be me, but also teach me and be with me to round it all out and give the organization everything that it needed. And once I realized that, then we started to soar.

Cindy Carrillo:
And then I started to hire people in key positions. So I hired a coo, a chief Operating officer. Now, this guy brought systems to the company that I just couldn’t be bothered with. I didn’t know how to do this. You know, I had the idea, and I knew where I wanted us to get to, but I didn’t know how to get there. And he had a very different background than me, and he was incredibly patient with me and incredibly encouraging, and he really helped me see how management worked and how to build the organization from a management perspective. Because I was a naturally. I was naturally a good leader.

Cindy Carrillo:
So I can tell the story. I can see where I wanted us to go. I could connect the dots for people, and I could inspire and do all those things, and I could sell but managing the day to day work, not so much. I could do it when there were two and three and maybe four of us up to 10. And then I lost my footing on it and then it was sort of like I didn’t like it as much and I was getting too into the weeds and not, not really leaning into the strategic and visionary side of myself. And when he came on, he brought on other people who were so good at what they did, right? And all of a sudden the team was starting to form and so I could lead the team, but I couldn’t manage the team.

Dana Robinson:
Dana Robinson here.

Dana Robinson:
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Dana Robinson:
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Dana Robinson:
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Dana Robinson:
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Dana Robinson:
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Dana Robinson:
Danarobinson.Com yeah, that’s a tough inflection point. I think it’s a place where ego gets in the way. But also, you know, the getting that right operator is so key. So key. And. And I’ve heard of companies that have come close to failure by getting the wrong person, you know, so the. Do you think you got lucky with.

Dana Robinson:
That or was there some.

Cindy Carrillo:
There was some luck, and then there were some good character. I mean, you know, I’m good with. I know people, and I can. So it was. But it’s always a bet, isn’t it? It’s always a risk. And everybody that we hired, one of the things that I. That I recognized pretty early on was that it’s kind of like, okay, we kind of want to hire you. You.

Cindy Carrillo:
You want to work here. So we’re going to do this in good faith. But really, do we know. Do we know if it’s going to be the right fit? Do we know if it’s going to work out? It says so on paper. And I’m checking my gut and we’re having a good time here, and we’re having a great conversation, and, gosh, you’re saying the right things and I’m saying the right things to you, but we never know, and that’s okay. We just have to be aligned enough with sort of that logical thinking that I get excited with the idea of you being here. So I’m checking sort of the heart rate here, and then my gut isn’t waving huge red flags smacking me in the face, and everything’s kind of quiet. And I learned that when I had that kind of alignment that I could say yes with a certain amount of confidence.

Cindy Carrillo:
And then we have to do the right things to set them up for success. So it doesn’t stop there, but it’s always a gamble.

Dana Robinson:
Yeah. Well, you told me you’re going to tell me all the big mistakes first. The first big mistake is don’t partner unless you’re partnering with people who are complementary. And then instead, higher, but always higher. Complimentary as well. What. Let me bring you back to big, big mistakes.

Cindy Carrillo:
So the second mistake that I made the. The most. The biggest. Okay. The. The second biggest. It’s kind of in the partner realm, is I got into a place in time within the company where we had hit a certain level and kind of plateaued. And we were selling into companies that were of a certain size, like up to about 5,000 employees.

Cindy Carrillo:
Okay. Because our measure was always, how many employees? Because we’re serving employees. And I was having a really hard time breaking into the next Level, sort of that Fortune 100, Fortune 500 to 100 and trying to figure out like how do you get in? And so rather than asking that question and seeking out new sales techniques, new sales people and doing what I did with the operation was finding the right person. I basically convinced myself that I probably wasn’t capable. So I needed to go find my terminology, the prince and my, you know, the next person to take over and wean myself out of the company. Because I probably wasn’t good enough. I didn’t have an mba, I never worked in corporation before. I have a master’s in social work, which served me incredibly well leading a company and I learned all the business stuff.

Cindy Carrillo:
But at that point in time I started to really doubt myself and really got like really harsh with myself, convincing myself that I wasn’t good enough. So I went looking and I didn’t pick well. I didn’t listen to my gut. And I think I was so convinced that I needed to find somebody better for the company. I wasn’t focused on finding somebody who would be right for the company. And so I picked somebody who turned out to be not a good fit. And that was a real struggle at that point. We did a capital raise.

Cindy Carrillo:
First time that I gave up any part of the company. And in doing that I convinced these. I got like 29 individual investors, which was like herding cats by the way. And they were all men too. And I’m a woman run company. So I did a great job of them, convincing them that I needed to bring this guy in. And two years later, two and a half, almost three years later, it was very clear that that was not a good fit and he needed to go. So now he’s gone.

Cindy Carrillo:
And the investors, now my little mini board come to me and say, hey Cindy, can you stick around while we find new CEO? And it was like a wet towel hitting me in the face because once he left I was like, oh no, it’s me. No, no. Now I know that I can do this because I know what shouldn’t be here and that I’m absolutely the right person to do this. So then I had to stand up in front of 29 people and say, one, I was wrong, two, made a really bad mistake, I’m sorry. And three, I’m your gal and I’m going to turn this company back around and talk about a big leap of faith from them. But they did it and they said, okay, are you sure? Because you pretty well convinced us you want it out? And I said, no, no, I’m telling you I was wrong. I made a mistake, and I’m your gal. And so I came back down.

Cindy Carrillo:
And I also said with the intention that within a relatively short period of time, that I will come back, turn the company back around for an exit. And that was the agreement. I said, but the exit needs to be kind of. We need to be in a different place. So remarkably, because I had the best team in the world who had stuck with me during that two to three year period and was really confused why I did what I did, but they stuck with me. And then they stuck with me during that time. And, you know, nobody does it alone. And I certainly didn’t do it alone.

Cindy Carrillo:
But we were on fire at that point. We were driving in the. Just in the same direction. Everybody was motivated. And then I went to that board and said, okay, now, now we’re ready to sell.

Dana Robinson:
How long did that take from. From the point where you took out the. The operator that you’d put in to replace yourself. Do you take the reins again? What was that time frame?

Cindy Carrillo:
It was just two years.

Dana Robinson:
Wow.

Dana Robinson:
So you turn it all back around, on fire. Two years.

Cindy Carrillo:
Yeah.

Dana Robinson:
And then took the. Took the company to the market.

Cindy Carrillo:
Yeah, that was fun too, because, you know, it was 2008. Okay. Now early.

Dana Robinson:
I remember it with great pain. I remember that year.

Cindy Carrillo:
Right. So it was early 2008, where we. It was like January. I remember saying to my leadership team, okay, guys, we have to have an amazing first and second quarter. We got it. We got a. I mean, it was just all hands on deck. And there were only two or three people within that team that I.

Cindy Carrillo:
That I then shared. We were posi. We were going to. I wanted to get the company to the point where we were positioned to then sell. And that’s not something you share with everybody. Early on. And we got to the point and it was really about June where I went to my board and we were doing great. And my.

Cindy Carrillo:
Nobody knew it was coming. Right. I mean, unless you’re in the housing market. And so. And we weren’t. So it was sort of like, I go to the board and they’re like, what, are you crazy? We’re doing great. We got another two, three year run here. And I said, I think it’s now.

Cindy Carrillo:
I think it’s give me the summer, but by Labor Day, I want to be up for sale. And they really were pushing back. So there was a guy who was one of our investors who was an investment bank, and I went to him and I laid it out and he Came with me to talk to the board. They respected him. Not that they didn’t respect me, but they. He was different. And so he made the pitch. And at the end of the pitch, they were like, really? So why? And his words to them, which I will never forget, was he said, in my 20 some odd years of putting brokering deals and sales of companies, when the founder and CEO tells me that it’s the right time to sell.

Cindy Carrillo:
And he looked over at me and he said, cindy, is it the right time to sell? And I said, absolutely. And he said, how do you know? I said, I just know in every cell of my body. And he turned back to them and he goes, I will back them 100% of the time because they’re always right. And that did it. That did it. And they all got on board and I did everything. We hired them to then sell the company and then worked all summer to get all of the stuff that you have to do and put it out there on Labor Day. And we ended up going through a competitive bid process.

Cindy Carrillo:
But I’ll tell you, Labor Day, I think it was September 11th of 2008, when Lehman Brothers went under, and we just put ourselves on the mark and we sold. We went through a competitive. You know, we weren’t in that space. There was momentum behind us, and we inked a deal by December of that year, with the economy just tanking around us. It was extraordinary, and it was one of the most enjoyable and exciting times of my life to go through that process. It was amazing.

Dana Robinson:
That’s great. What was it? A strategic acquisition or did you sell to a private equity fund?

Cindy Carrillo:
No, we sold it to our top competitor, who was my top choice. And it was funny because I called them before, just before the packet got to them, and I said, just so you know, we’re up for sale. You’re going to want to pay attention. And. And he laughed. The CEO laughed and he said, sydney. And I said, no, you. You want to pay attention.

Cindy Carrillo:
And. And so they ended up being the successful bidder.

Dana Robinson:
That’s awesome.

Cindy Carrillo:
Yeah.

Dana Robinson:
Good for you. While we’re on the. You know that. That any. Did we. Did we complete your mistakes list?

Cindy Carrillo:
Oh, I hope so. God knows there are a lot of little ones, but I think I shared uncomfortably enough, I’ve shared the big ones.

Dana Robinson:
All right. No, I love it. So wonderful. That’s a fun story, for sure. And also I love the sort of hero’s journey of your loss of faith in yourself and then coming back. You know, the. That comeback is super cool.

Dana Robinson:
All Right.

Dana Robinson:
So these days, as have you been doing what you’re doing now since then, is that. Was this, did you do any, do anything else? I want to jump to what are you doing to take all of what you’ve learned and help. Help entrepreneurs and kind of get out of you the kind of the knowledge that you’re passing on to entrepreneurs now? But I don’t want to skip a step if there was something.

Cindy Carrillo:
No, no, I think it all came from, it all came from the sale of the company then. But I did, I think when I got out on the other side. We closed the deal in early 2009 and I was asked to stay on for a year. And one of the things that I’ve learned through that is that founders, we are the old guard. And the reason they wanted me to stay on was because we had a very tight culture. You know, I was a mother, I raised the company. I used to call it the mother of all companies. I mean, it was a tight group and I had like 85 employees at the time and we were servicing over a million lives nationwide life and had some really top notch clients.

Cindy Carrillo:
And I think that the CEO of the company that bought us recognized that there needed to be some stability with a 22 year old company. And all of the people had been there for so long, so they asked me to stay. Six months into it, I realized that I didn’t have a job. And whereas people were telling me just take the salary and go play golf. Well, the reality is I hate golf. And I also felt like I, I had one foot in that world and I, I had another foot just dying to get some grounding to figure out what was next. So it was kind of holding me back. And so I met the CEO at like a conference that summer and I said, let me go, you don’t need me.

Cindy Carrillo:
I’m not adding value. It’s bothering me because people are working their asses off and I’m not. So just buy me out of my contract, let me go and I need to move on. And he was like, okay, you know, I get it. So I threw myself one hell of a retirement party because, right, you gotta celebrate. And then set about trying to figure out what was next. And you know, my first inclination was, I have, I, there’s so many opportunities, but I had no idea, honest to God. And the only answer to give was to retire because I was in my mid-50s and either you either start another company if you’ve run a company, you know, and started your own company, or you retired there’s not a lot of gray in between.

Cindy Carrillo:
So I would just tell people I didn’t want to start another company. So I was sort of like, I guess I’m just going to retire when asked, what’s next for you? But I always put quotation marks around it because I didn’t feel like I was ready to retire. I didn’t know what that meant. I wasn’t done. So I ended up sort of adding onto the retirement thing. Well, what does that mean? Where are you going to go? What are you going to do? And I had this vision and I would say, I think I’m going to retire. I think what I’ll do is I’ll buy a piece of property. I live in Colorado, gorgeous state.

Cindy Carrillo:
So I think I’ll go find a piece of property with a magnificent, magnificent view of the Rocky Mountains and I’ll, I don’t know, sit on the porch in a big rocking chair with an even bigger hat and I’ll just retire. And that was the line that I used because I had no idea what to do, but it kept saying it over and over and over. And then I realized, you know, I think I’d like to do that. Not the retirement piece necessarily, but I do think I kind of want to go find a piece of land with magnificent view. I don’t know why I needed a big hat and a rocking chair, but I thought I can. I think what it was was this idea of I have an opportunity to change the life I’m living, to change the lifestyle of how I was living. My kids were grown, I didn’t have a business, I was divorced, I had a new guy in my life. It was like, okay, what’s next? So I went looking and ultimately found a 35 acre parcel of land with, I gotta say, one of the most magnificent views you’ve ever looked at.

Cindy Carrillo:
And became a rancher and a coach. And I’ve been doing that for the last 13 years.

Dana Robinson:
Fantastic. Talk about the coaching. What’s your, you know, what, who you, who you coaching? And what are some of the things that people can learn from the, like what you’re offering?

Cindy Carrillo:
And yeah, so I’m, you know, people ask me all the time, are you a business coach? Are you a life coach? And I think the answer is yes, I guess I’m pretty sure business is a huge component and ingredient of your life. And where I started my career with my business was this concept of we are whole people and we can’t leave our lives in and really pit our lives against our work, they really need to be blended together. So I coach on that philosophy. I coach business leaders in India. So many different industries. I’m industry agnostic. I coach entrepreneurs who have started their own businesses and really need. It’s very lonely to run your own business and really need somebody to talk to who’s sort of been there, done that.

Cindy Carrillo:
And over the years, I’ve now created a platform here at the ranch. So I have this beautiful ranch and we built this main house and a guest house and we have a barn full of miniature animals. I have miniature horses and donkeys and I have goats and pigs and chickens and a goose named Debbie and cows. And it’s an amazing life. And we run this ranch and we have a huge garden and my partner Matthew cooks all the meals and we bring now clients to the ranch for a two and a half day immersion program to help people find their next. So what’s next for them? Because oftentimes, just like I was, we get stuck. We get kind of paralyzed. We get stuck with the dauntingness of change and having to make a big life decision.

Cindy Carrillo:
We get paralyzed because of the opportunities that are out there and not knowing how to focus in on what’s really important to us. And I went through the process of redefining myself and really transforming myself into, from a CEO, you know, to a ranch girl and a coach. And it’s. There were lessons. There were so many more mistakes. We don’t have time on this podcast to talk through all of those mistakes. But those mistakes had to do with learning about fencing and irrigation and animals and how to parse out land and, but all the concepts that were behind them, I kind of gathered them up and I use them in my coaching. But I also decided to write a book about it called Finding youg Next.

Cindy Carrillo:
And it’s Finding youg Next with next being spelled capital nxt. Because I really want to focus on the concept of next.

Dana Robinson:
Love it. You know, we, we probably have another five, six minutes we could talk. So I want to be sure that we, we get a little bit of, of kind of a flavor. Obviously, if you’re listening to this and you’re, you’re thinking about what’s next, there’s, there’s a website people can go to to get to your immersion program and get your book and we’ll talk more about it before we have the closing. I’ll. I’ll shout out the URL. But what are some of the, like, are you finding in this coaching business? Common threads, themes that, that are recurring that we might be able to talk about a principle or two of things that you find a common sticking point or something where you go, like, almost everybody who comes in here has this thing, and here is some. A sort of matrix for looking at or a mindset or framework.

Cindy Carrillo:
Yeah. I think we have to start with what blocks us from figuring out what’s next. And in the book, I call them the blockers to change. And I think in coaching and in the immersion and in life and mentoring people all my life, I found that we all kind of face these. And there’s two big ones and a third more insidious one. And the first one is the fear of the unknown, man, that can stop us in our tracks. You know, nobody likes the idea of jumping into complete darkness. Let’s face it, we.

Cindy Carrillo:
We don’t like the unknown. And oftentimes, you know, we will get blocked from even moving forward because we have so many questions we don’t have answers for. So we stop. Oh, I don’t know. You know, I don’t know how to do that. I don’t know what that would be like. My clearing of the blocker for people is often to change the perspective of. It’s a fear of the unknown.

Cindy Carrillo:
Therefore, I shouldn’t do it to. If I’m feeling fearful and I recognize it’s because of the unknown. So many unknowns in front of me. That’s actually an amazing sign that I just have more questions than I have answers for. So the real test is, do you have enough interest, curiosity, excitement to go figure out what the answers are. It’s not that the questions are a bad thing and should stop us. It’s just a stop sign that then says, well, am I willing to then pause and move through it and gather the information I need to feel comfortable and answer the questions and make things more known. If not, move on.

Cindy Carrillo:
If so, I might have a pretty good idea. Maybe it’s worth exploring so it doesn’t have to stop us and block us. The second one is similar, but it’s the fear of failure. What if it goes upside down? What if I can’t do it? What if it blows up in my face? What if, what if, what if? Man, that’s a big one. People hate failure. I just don’t believe it exists. So I’ve taken out the whole fear of failure by saying, wait, is this failure actually exist if you learn?

Dana Robinson:
Right?

Cindy Carrillo:
So if I learn, have I really failed? Well, maybe I need to go in a different direction. Maybe I need to figure it out differently. Maybe I need to pick it up and move here. But now I’ve learned. Am I going to do that again? Probably not. So we don’t do much in life without making mistakes and getting through life with some trial and error. That is a natural part of life. We don’t need to fear it.

Cindy Carrillo:
We need to kind of embrace it for the learnings and the growth and the experience that we gain and not make stupid mistakes, be thoughtful and intelligent and intentional. So we need to answer those questions that the fear of the unknown bring in front of us. The third one is the one that keeps us the most from changing, and that’s our willingness to settle because we’re fearful of the unknown, we’re fearful of failure. We’re more comfortable with where we are, what we know. So even if it’s not serving us, even if we’re not happy, even if we’re not even satisfied, sometimes we choose to settle for what we have because we feel like it’s going to take more energy and more time and more, more, more. Whatever you want to fill in the blanks when in reality, it takes a tremendous amount of energy and willpower and time and to stay where we are.

Dana Robinson:
I love that. That’s an amazing commentary on how to not. That’s just not only for entrepreneurs, Cindy. That’s for everybody and who feels stuck. Right. These are blockers that I would say are universal to anybody, but certainly things that waylay us as entrepreneurs.

Cindy Carrillo:
Yeah.

Dana Robinson:
Yeah, for sure. Well, thanks for sharing those. If people want to connect with you, I’ve got your website up, so I’ll just read your URL finding your NXT next. Findingyournext without the e.com and that’ll bring them to a website that actually has the picture of the background of your view, which I saw a little bit of when your windows were open before. Before we had to shut the blinds to keep the camera working the right way. Looks like a beautiful place. I want to come out and meet your goose.

Cindy Carrillo:
Yeah, Debbie would like to meet you.

Dana Robinson:
This is a nice goose because most geese have chased me and honked and tried to attack. So if you got a nice.

Cindy Carrillo:
She’s a sweetheart. Yes. And she runs. She runs the ranch, but yes, she is a sweetheart.

Dana Robinson:
So, yeah, people. People who are listening, obviously, you know, a great gateway to what Cindy’s offering is to grab the book links on the website. There’s a nice prominent menu item for getting the book on paperback, ebook, and audiobook. Where else is an entry point for people to connect with you, Cindy?

Cindy Carrillo:
You know, there’s a contact form on the website. The website’s really the best way to get ahold of me, send me a note from there. And I always respond and love to just talk to people about where they are. Just also launched the workbook as the companion piece for the book and I recorded the audiobook, which I got to tell you was my next, because that was a gas to do. But it was something I needed to get over the fear of failure and the fear of the unknown for I will tell you that right now. So they do rear their heads along the way.

Dana Robinson:
Yes. Well, good, good of you to recognize it, Cindy. It’s been a pleasure to get to know you a little bit more and to introduce you to the to the Exit Plan audience, everyone who’s listening. Don’t forget, send questions, comments to hello@danarobinson.com and connect with Cindy if she sounds like the coach that you’re looking for. For Cindy, thanks for coming on.

Cindy Carrillo:
This has been a guest. Dana, thank you.

Dana Robinson:
Thanks for joining me on this episode of the Exit Plan podcast. I’d love to hear from you. Feel free to hit me up with questions or comments by emailing me at hello@danarobinson.com or leave comments and questions by calling 858-252-7785. Call 858-252-785 and leave a message.